Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

Ever find yourself left hanging WTSHTF? Survival Preps might include the proper equipment for what is called Abseiling:




:wavey: as one of my good friends said: BE PREPARED

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

Excuse me to interrupt... but... WTF?

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

Like attacking other members and posting porn, eh jooz? How much are you guys paying the mods? (or are you the mods?)

Guess this is what the mods think is a "safe place for their kids".

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

Googler, this is your warning. This is a gold/silver site, no porn. Participate appropriately or I will be happy to show you the exit.

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

Welcome back, dude! Hope e-Siberia wasn't too cold!

:D

Plenty of people talking about you, and claiming you have dozens of identities here.

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

KG is back with a very useful thread.?

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

I like KG. :D

Don't know why....the rest of the anti-zionist crowd annoys the hell out of me.

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

Abseiling? Oh, no! KG's gone Eurotrash on his vacation! :D

I agree that it's a good skill to know, but so as not to get in trouble, one should really know how to do it and understand the equipment. Important stuff to know:

1. Know the difference between types and sizes of ropes. Your rigging, your equipment, and in many cases your survival will depend upon rigging and using the rope appropriately. For example, I could go to the local outdoor outfitter and buy dynamic climbing rope, 11 mm static rope, or 9 mm static rope. If you don't know the difference and just pick the one with the pretty colors, you could get in a lot of trouble. For example, doing what the guy in the above photo is doing isn't great for a dynamic climbing rope, but it's okay. Do that on an 11-mm static rope, and you'll need to retire the rope. Do it on a 9-mm static rope, and you might take a painful plummet when that rope rubs against the rock. It's also worth pointing out that "jumping" while on rope can be dangerous if your rappel device is attached to your harness with a carabiner rather than a maillon. If the 'biner shifts and your weight comes down on the gate, the gate could fail.

2. Know what you want to use the skill for. Short rappels (ahem...abseils)? Long ones? Traverses? Will you be needing to come back up the rope? The length of the rappel will can make a difference in what type of rappel device you use. Figure 8s are fine for short rappels. Double 'biners work fine on really short rappels (about 30 feet or less). Racks and bobbins are best for long rappels (over 100 feet), give you more control, and give you the ability to pass intermediate anchors or rope pads(when there is no choice but to attach the pad to the rope). Racks work best on larger diameter ropes. Bobbins work best on European-style/diameter ropes (but those ropes require far more padding).

3. Always have proper safety gear: a hardhat and a way to get your weight off your rappel device should you become stuck (say, you just got your beard, hair, clothing sucked into your rappel device or, as has happened to me on a couple of occasions, you notice that there is a very angry rattlesnake coiled at the bottom of the rope--having the ability to reverse direction can be a very good thing!). The Gibbs above is a good device, as it can be used as a safety (leg wraps are highly overrated in the stopping fast department!). A handled ascender with a foot loop is also good.

4. If you'll be climbing back up the rope, more specialized equipment, practice, and training are required. You'll also need a sit harness with a lower point of attachment than rock climbing harnesses have.

Even if one is only planning to do short little rappels of maybe 60 feet or less, it's still imperative to know how to get out of trouble or how to get someone else out of trouble, and it could be useful to know how to negotiate more complicated vertical terrain.

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

maddie that photo of me in a run down was done on 11mm static it is the best rope for the job we were not doing any solid lock braking having trained a lot before.
the biggest problem was rope abrasion which we had carpet attached to any abrasion points with regular full rope inspections.
and it could be very hard on harnesses i had to retire one after that day because i let the rope rub across it

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

Eleven mil rope is what I use, too. It's pretty tough stuff, and even if something happens and it gets abraided through the sheath (we had a rock fall on one of ours when it was loaded once...should have seen the way the core fuzzed up!), it will still hold enough not to kill you! I still worry about stress-loading it, though.

Funny story about a friend of mine: Her garage got burglarized, and all her caving rope was stolen. She had a devil of a time convincing the insurance company that she owned $6000 worth of rope (which she did, as she did a lot of expeditions to the big caves in Central America)! Lol! They did eventually pay up, but they weren't at all happy about it.

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

I still have more money in gear than i do in my car. if you can generate enough
force to break an 11 mm rope under normal circumstances (no major abrasion
sharp rock or rock fall) then hitting the ground is no longer a major concern for you the forces your body has already developed have probably killed you
even at half or 1/3 the breaking strain you would already be in a lot of trouble.

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

Thank you Infidel for all your mountaineering wisdom!

ADL is a paranoid bunch aren't they? Haha.

Why do the GIM Mods allow you to just shamelessly spam my thread with this link to your own personal website? Why don't you actually contribute to GIM's Survival Prep Section rather then trolling for new survivalmonkey.com members?

Eurotrash? I saw that naked mud wresting photo of you caving Maddy. :D

Seriously...thanks for all this technical advice folks. Maddie raises some excellent points about real world safety and expectations. It obviously is a lot more complicated and dangerous [and expensive] then what we see on teevee. Is there a basic level that can be of help for your average GIMer caught facing vertical challenges wtshtf?

:yippee: or just buy the Lederhosen and fake it?

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

When facing vertical challenges, go around it. :captain:

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

GIMers can be exposed to vertical challenges. Maybe someone can offer practical suggestions on basic equipment for the average GIMer.

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

KG, for basic level, rappelling down a short drop: a dynamic climbing rope, any sort of rappel device (a figure-9 is probably the cheapest), a hardhat, a sit harness (make sure you back-thread your webbing through the buckles, so it doesn't undo itself), a locking carabiner or maillon for your sit harness, and a safety device or someone competent on belay, and a good book or competent instructor can get you started. Most areas have rock-climbing clubs or caving clubs that can help you get started (caving clubs never charge for this).

A couple of books that cover all the basics:

On Rope available at http://www.karstsports.com/81085.html. The definitive book on SRT (single-rope technique, American-style ropework).

http://www.mountaineersbooks.org/pro...ils.cfm?PC=568 (I don't have this book, but it looks decent.)

There's a basic level of competency that should be strived for and that's, of course, to be prepared for the things that can happen while you're on rope. Once you're comfortable on rope, take it upon yourself to learn to rescue someone stuck or unconscious on rope, learn to self-rescue (such as getting unstuck if an article of clothing gets sucked into your rappel device), learn how to pass intermediate anchors, learn how to climb back up a rope (with gear, I mean) so that you can reverse direction if you need to, and learn how to rig a basic haul system. It sounds like a lot, but things can take an unexpected turn at any time, and sometimes there's very little time to react, so one has to know one's skills thoroughly.

I take it all very seriously. I once gently told a guy who joined us on a caving trip that he had his system set up dangerously and why (seriously, at one point I nearly climbed up to rescue him off the rope!). Everyone else on the trip was whispering about it, but no one wanted to be the one to say something about it. When I tried to discuss it with him, he got angry and blew me off. Three weeks later, he and his best friend went out alone, and he rigged his best friend up the same way. They both got in trouble on rope. His friend died on rope. Stuck, exhausted, and hypothermic, he ultimately lost consciousness and died when the weight of his unconscious body hanging in the sit harness interfered with his blood flow. The guy I'd tried to talk into fixing his system nearly died, too. He had gotten into the same trouble and become so exhausted and hypothermic that he collapsed on the ground when he got off rope and was too out of it to even try to help his friend. Another time we told a guy that his equipment was dangerous and that he shouldn't attach his rappel rack with a 'biner. Two months later, the 'biner unscrewed itself on a rappel and managed to slide around enough that his rappel device fell out of it, and he fell 80 feet to his death. My own sister nearly died climbing on rope when she got stuck under an undercut lip in the breakover of a waterfall. She was new to caving and had no business being in that particular cave, but her boyfriend talked her into it. The girl had no body fat, and she quickly exhausted herself trying to get out of her predicament. She was getting hypothermic and decided she just needed to rest. Once she got cold, she couldn't make herself keep trying. She said that just as she was slipping into unconsciousness, she heard my voice in her ear, just as if I were there, telling her very clearly and loudly exactly what I'd repeated ad nauseum while teaching her about ropework in waterfalls: "NEVER REST! If you rest, you'll DIE!" At that point, she remembered what I'd taught her about undercut ledges and saved herself (though I very nearly killed her BF when I found out where he'd taken her and what had happened).

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

mostly kg it is knowing how to use stuff and its not something anybody can teach you on the internet you can descend safely with both the setups
in this picture and i think it is something that everybody should have in there bob prefrably the figure 8 and steel carabiner on the right but the chain link
will also do the job but you have no promises of strength on anything not made for climbing so you take your chances if you want to play with improvised climbing gear.you can also descend using a body belay this can be very painfull just on a steep slope.

http://www.damoc.com/desc.JPG

here is an improvised rope harness

http://www.damoc.com/data/ropeclimb/ropehar.html

you will also want as much 8 or 9 mm static rope as you can fit in your bob 50 meters would be nice it has many
other uses for an emergency but you shouldnt use for abseiling if you have used for a tow rope or winch line

also prussick line with your bob

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

Thanks Maddie! You simply continue to amaze me with your knowledge, wisdom, and real-world experience.

:adore: Mankind envies your husband

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

Thanks Damoc. I'm beginning to understand that taking lessons is necessary. Most people can't perform even one pull-up/chin-up.

Would it be practical for all GIMers to have climbing rope, a figure eight and steel carabiner? BTW your weblink is just what I had in mind with this thread!

:dontknow: practice on the tree in the backyard?

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

I think they should but i think static line is preferable not climbing rope
climbing rope is designed to stretch to absorb the shock of a fall in rock climbing its not quite as strong as static line and not as abrasion resistant
and if you do actually want to pull somthing out of a bog or winch something
a static line is a better choice and a more likely use.
static line is still good for top rope climbing where you do not generate the same fall forces that you would in lead climbing

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

Will you suggest a specific starter kit for a BOB with links to one rope, one figure 8 and one carabiner so we can get started practicing on the tree in our backyard?

Nice to see all this professional/expert Mountaineering stuff posted but your approach as illustrated in your weblink is what most of us want to see from a Survival Prep perspective.

Let's start with the basic three: static rope, figure eight, and carabiner for our BOB. What do we buy?

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

One rope is probably all we will have in our BOB. Damoc makes perfect sense here.

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

Thanks for personally attacking people who actually contribute in this thread.

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

Hi Book!

Good thread. I'd say in a SHTF scenario, what you'll need more than a figure 8 or a rope will be SKILLS. Without them, you could have a fat big-wall rack and still no idea what to do with it. With skills you will always know what you need, how to get it and how to use it.

For rappelling, the only indispensable piece of gear is the rope. There are ways to rappel without a harness or biner (carabiner), but they are slow and uncomfortable. Of course, a figure 8, a couple of biners and a harness are all standard sport climbing equipment. But in a survival situation you'll need to know how to anchor your rope, climb back up it, rescue someone, etc. Most often, when a survival situation arises that requires doing any of this, you'll find that you don't have all the gear you'd like for that exact situation, so you need to know what to do. How do you rappel if you don't have a harness, or a biner? How do you climb up a rope if you don't have a Gibbs, or jumar?

Know your knots. Knots can substitute biners and figure 8s (Munter Hitch) if you know how to use them, and prusik knots can be used as ascenders. In a survival situation, even your shoelace can be used to tie a prusik.

The one thing you don't want to do is find yourself hanging from a rope without any options and trying to remember how to do something that can save your life. Practice, practice, practice. On flat ground if you need to, then a slope, then a small wall, then a cliff.

If you want to be serious about it, you need to practice seriously. Get dressed in your "mountaineering" gear, grab your rope, cords and webbing and run a cold shower. Sit in it with the lights off until you start shivering, then start tying and untying all the knots you think you know.

Heck, if you don't freak out too much the first time your life is on the line and get comfortable enough with the "abseiling" part, maybe you'll be ready to try the best part- climbing up the rock while trailing your rope. That's where the ral fun is! Also, potentially useful in many situations. (Didn't you post some of those Parkour videos a while back?)

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

no i already said that it shouldnt be used for abseiling after it was used for winching or towing just that it does make very good light thin
towrope or winch line and that is what i am more likely to use it for wtshtf.

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

When was the last time you actually did this Ulysses? Last night? Last week? Last month? Get real.

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

Me too. One rope for everything in a BOB.

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

Actually, last year. But I wasn't in the shower, I was on a route.

Anyway, do as you please.

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

my personal safety gear is clean,protected and never used for anything
but climbing and abseiling. my rope in my bob is my rope its cared for
and used as it MIGHT need to be. i hope never to use it to tow or winch
and then also for safety but if it comes to that post tshtf it will be my personal judgment call and one i feel pretty confident to make.

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

Let me repeat it for you Sukhoi:

One rope in your BOB for wtshtf. For everything you do. One. Rope. One rope.

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

you are right there is no sure way to tell if it has been over stressed it is a
judgment call.

all you can do is a physical inspection over every inch of rope looking for abrasion feeling for lumps or unnatural bends or "empty spots" and you can
do a stretch test and see if rope returns to original length after use as all ropes stretch to some degree original rope length should be recorded and when/if rope remains extended by 5% it should be retired

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

Meanwhile back on Earth on topic in the Survival Prep Section of GIM...

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

oddly enough, DogFarm does keep a 200 meter Edleweiss 9.8 millimeter rope, figure 8, some slings, and a swiss seat in his bailout bag.

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

simple rule for climbing once a rope has taken a fall on it, it should never be used again in that capacity, onr the other had using items not quite what htey are designed for has saved my life more than once on a mountain. improvise takes precedence when you are weighing a pack for a climb. certain things must come and other things must stay, otherwise the pack becomes too heavy. wasnt sure if you guys were talking about climbing for real or some kind of survival scenario. i dont ride no desk

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

Since this is the Survival Prep Section of GIM what I had in mind is a very basic minimalist must-have kit for a BOB.

:wavey: What would you carry specifically for wtshtf?

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

What exactly would you suggest for a bug out bag? 200 meters seems rather generous.

:smokin: what are your absolute minimalist requirements?

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

You bought out the whole store?

:haha:

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

dont follow ? they should have plent of stuff . i go on expeditions so i buy alot. where ya gonna bug out to? if your on the run stay off a wall and yu wont need to rap.

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

No i cant recomend any brands sorry i dont want you to go practising in your
back yard i would like you to get some real life training and whoever trains you can recomend gear. I would like to have at least 50m 9mm static rope, a steel screwgate carabiner prefer several most climbing stores will look at you like you are nuts, and a figure 8 and some extra cord suitable for prussick loops.oh and some tape

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

Thanks Damoc. Legal disclaimer duly noted.

50m of 9mm static rope.
steel screwgate carabiner.
figure eight

Most of us already have 550 parachute cord in the BOB. What kind of tape?

:dontknow:

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

make sure the rope is dry line

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

Thanks Cortez! I just surfed into this REI webpage about choosing climbing rope:

http://www.rei.com/learn/Climbing/rei/learn/climb/ropef

Looks like the starting point is around $200

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

right now mountaingear.com has10.2mm dry(blue water) $169.00. they always have good sale items. also maybe instead of figure 8 go with black diamond atc. not really sure your application

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

thats a good example why i dont want to recomend any brands etc when you
know what to use it for and how to use it you will know what to buy incorectly tied tape slips very easily its not very abrasion resistant and has
other downsides and it also has many uses.

same goes for the prussick cord used for prussic knots if the wrong size for
main line they can slip and need extra loops or with a shock load can break
and even peel the mantle (outer part of rope).

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

Absolute minimalist that most GIMers can toss in their bugout bag. Here we have many who can only afford a few silver coins so it makes no sense for us American Gold Eagle snobs to be talking about what is "best" but not affordable.

As this thread has evolved it is clear to me that real climbing is complicated and expensive. So...for now...how about what to carry in the average bugout bag?

:smile: basic survival not sport or adventure

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

what i dont understand is where is everybody going to bail out too? do you think that private land owners and residents of a small mountain community are going to just welcome all the city dwellers when they start running for their lives? the resources that are around us will become high commidity if these bad things happen. really i think many people on this forum are just over paranoid. what would you need rope to abseile for if you were bugging out? if you were going to get rope and a harness and gear, you should get the best because your life may depend on it. so spend the money

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

Maybe you can start another thread addressing your reservations about the need for Survival Preps. I can see the usefulness in having a length of rope for wtshtf.

So...back to now selecting 50 meters of minimalist rope...at least 300 lbs of live weight load...static with not too much stretch...

:smokin: multi-purpose so can also be used for hanging looters or tying up lovers

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

the sky is falling, do you have something for every occasion? do you know how to build an anchor? self belay? what if your scenario happened tomorrow before you recieved proper instruction. what if your in your car when the shit hits and your stuck on a freeway miles from your oh shit bag. really if your in or near a city your f#*^ed.

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

Cowboy walks into the General Store and says he needs some rope. Back in the good old days the clerk said "how much you need Bob?" The clerk didn't question the need. Didn't call the cowboy paranoid. Didn't play "what if" games. Man has used "rope" for centuries. It all basically had the same specifications. Seems like a good idea to have 50 meters of "rope" in our bugout bags. What are you doing in the Survival Prep section?

:sleep:

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

givng sound advice. your bug out bag seems based on speculation. in the picture you could just take the fire escape down. all i'm saying is what is practicle. not to have what is needed in case i gotta bug out, but think in terms of preventative maintence. get out of the city while you can if thats where your at. all that gear is useless if your hundreds of miles from the wilderness. yes have safty gear, but also realize all these survival prep forums can be unnecesary if you take matters into hand now instead of worrying about can i handle it later. although it is the human condition to put things off and say i'll worry about that later. so have your bag in the closet, but when the time comes you probalbly wont be able to get to it. thats really what i'm saying.

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

I agree with everything you say Gasilat. I was thinking more about the two secondary duffel bags I have...not the primary backpack.

As you can see in this photo...even the new "Democracy" we installed in Iraq needs rope. Might as well keep some handy here too...

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

I would rather have one of these.....

http://sp1.mm-a10.yimg.com/image/402414322

~Prag

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

The minimalist approach:

- One diaper/swami harness: You can tie it like Damoc demonstrates above or you can make it out of seatbelt webbing (more comfortable, folds up very compactly, and can be ready to rappel in a lot faster if time is of the essence). I have one of these in my gear bag. I use it on occasion when the drops are short, and I'm in the mood for minimalism.
Seat belt swami directions: Go to a climbing store and buy about 10' of seatbelt webbing and a heavy duty metal sit harness buckle. You can make one by sewing the ends together and not using a buckle if you measure it out ahead of time and don't need an adjustable size. Sew the buckle onto one end of the length of webbing with heavy synthetic thread (can be done with an awl; sew a nice big "X" with a square around it, then stitch over it again and maybe again). Make sure when you use it, you thread the webbing back through the buckle after you've buckled it and that the buckle is on the waist part of the webbing! To wear, run the free end through the buckle to make a loop, rethread end of webbing back through buckle, hold the loop behind your butt, pull part of the loop in front of your hips on each side (the loop is now sort of wrapped around your hips) and catch each of the ends of the loop in a locking steel 'biner in front of you, then bring a part of the loop up between your legs and catch it in the same 'biner. Back up this 'biner with another with the gate facing the opposite way. Seriously, back it up! This is sometimes called a diaper harness or a swami harness. Note that you should kind of bend over when adjusting it. If you're a guy and your voice goes up an octave when you stand up, you've done it correctly (it won't be so tight when you sit in it, but if it's loose, you can fall out). Make sure the upper webbing is across your lower back and hasn't fallen below your buttocks before you place your weight fully on it.

You could also use a compact harness like this: http://www.karstsports.com/gogugecaseha.html

-a figure 8 descender. If you're inexperienced, get one with the little wings (a rescue eight), so you don't girth hitch the rope and get stuck. Also, consider your rope diameter when selecting your 8. A large-diameter rope in a little 8 will give you a LOT of friction.

-2 locking steel 'biners. Like duct tape, a good 'biner is never a waste of space and weight.

-One rope. The Edelweiss 9 mm is good, or any climbing rope will probably do. I personally like 11 mm static caving rope, especially if one needs a rope that can take some abuse, but 11 mm is heavier and not as flexible. Figure the longest drop you should use it for if you're inexperienced is only going to be between 30 and 60 feet, then add another 10 feet or so for rigging. If you cut it, seal the ends (heat or Tool Dip work). Do NOT use this rope for anything else that might stress load it. It might not break outright unless you take a fall on it, but you'd likely end up with a sheath separation. When you hit it, your descender will hit the "spongy" part and refuse to budge, leaving you hanging there unless you have the equipment and skill to get by it.

- Might want to add a 1' x 2' rectangle of ballistic cloth or canvas with a 3 mm Perlon cord threaded through one end of it for a rope pad in case you need it (remember that in a survival situation, you'll likely have the extra weight of packs, etc., so it may be important to pad the rope). In a pinch, you could use a piece of clothing.

-Glove (or two) to prevent rope friction eating through the skin on your palm. Sometimes one can get by without this, but most men are too heavy to do so.

-I'd bring prusik knots, too. They don't take up much space. See directions below.

- I can't in good conscience leave out the hardhat. I know if you're doing this as a survival skill, you probably won't have a hardhat with you. Good luck with that.

-Find an instructional course or read a good book and practice ahead of time. If you're using this skill for survival reasons, you might be in adverse conditions, in a big hurry, or burdened with a pack. That's not the time to experiment or get in trouble.

In the meantime:
http://members.aol.com/galleyno7/vt006.htm
http://www.orgt.gatech.edu/caving/knots/knots.html
http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/Prusik.htm
http://ozultimate.com/canyoning/knots/prusik/


Disclaimer: I agree with the others above. Learn how to do it right and with the proper equipment, or don't do it. It looks easy, but I can't tell you how many people I've seen louse it up and get helplessly stuck or dangerously out of control (well, would be dangerous if they didn't have a belay) when first trying it, usually because of some tiny little thing they weren't paying attention to. When things go wrong on rope, they can go really, really wrong, and it can happen in the blink of an eye. Once you have the skills and experience, you'll know how to safely go minimalist in an emergency.

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

figure eight can turn a rope into spagetti. ATC's are best for repelling.

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

Oh yeah, I'd rather have a couple of these and some rope. Chicks dig rope over handcuffs. Especially when you hog tie them with a sheep shank.

:bull-buddy-icon:

(although the dark haired one doesn't really do it for me...the blond is more my style)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...er-leather.jpg

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

the brunette looks like marylin manson, gnarly!:no_ma:

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

Absolutely Excellent! I want to especially thank Maddie and Damoc for their thoughtful and comprehensive suggestions.

It is now obvious that when I started this thread I had no idea just how complicated it really is. It is clear now that proper instruction, training and practice is necessary.

:congrats: Bravo Maddie and Damoc!

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

[QUOTE=Maddie;844580]The minimalist approach:
]

- -I'd bring prusik knots, too. They don't take up much space. See directions below.


you can forgo the need for prusik knots if you learn how to batman up the rope with your ATC. more use than the figure eight.

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

[quote=cortez;844592]Hmm...might have to try that just to know how to do it. Because the vast majority of my rappelling and climbing is in caves and pits, I usually rappel on a rack (or sometimes a bobbin). I climb on a frog system. I don't allow figure 8s on my ropes.

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

:wavey: Thanks Maddie!

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

basiclly you have the rope through your ATC, while either top roped or self belaying. as you climb you just pull the slack and the tension holds enough that if you do come off you can self arrest. of course these are applied in climbing. havnt done much caving and dont know how that would work for you. just figured you recomended the prusik for acending up the rope. figure eight is for the 1970's. be safe

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

I'll defer to you there. Prusik knots are a wretched way to climb a rope, and an ATC certainly looks minimalist enough. I would be only too happy to see figure 8s disappear! They are still quite popular, though. The local REI has a wall full of them.

Caving has such unique challenges (mud-encrusted rope and gear being among them!) that it doesn't always parallel what climbers on the surface are doing. Even when we do climbs underground, we have wet walls, mud, and a lot of unstable rocks to contend with, so our technique and equipment are a bit different (I've even used snow pickets in mud! Lol! Though not as a primary anchor, of course).

Thanks for the ATC tips.

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

snow pickets in mud, wow. i do alot of ice climbing as welland winter mountaineering. caving sounds just as uncomfortable or more than messin around on a mountain in the dead of winter. i admit that i think i might be closterphobic and shy away from anything deeper than an opening in the mountain. rather feel the exposure of some high slab. REI covers there walls in figure 8's because their customers are generally novices. i usually get gear on pro form from my old ski patrol days and other contacts in ski and mountain guide professions. maybe i'll give a cave a try if i ever come across someone to take me down.

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

I used to do some rock climbing, but I haven't in years. Being in the southeast, we don't have much in the way of ice climbing or mountaineering! If you ever come down south, I'll take you caving. It's definitely a different kind of world underground. We do a lot of climbing and bouldering, but the techniques are so different. When cavers go climbing with rock climbing friends, they always laugh at us because we're so used to maximizing friction that we'll use our knees and everything else (we're really good on crack climbs!). Definitely not elegant technique. When our rock climbing friends come caving with us, we're always yelling stuff like, "For God's sake, man! Use your butt! Friction, friction, friction!" :laugh: Water is the probably the most dangerous thing we have to contend with, though. Caves being formed by water, one has to be adept at climbing and rapelling in waterfalls and not drowning in the stream's breakover at the lip or in the water that will sheet over your nose and mouth if you don't hold your head just so under your hardhat. Sometimes we're pushing along with our toes, sucking air off the ceiling in a low, water-filled passage with only 3 or 4 inches of air space, breathing between the waves we create. It's awesome, though. There's nothing like hanging on a rope in a 300-foot waterfall, the wind howling like a hurricane, your light playing off cathedral-like walls soaring magnificently above and below into blackness.

Yeah, I know what you mean about REI. There's one about 3 miles from me. Very expensive, and they cater to the novices. I buy most of my gear from caving outfitters, all of whom are active cavers I've known for years.

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

do you wear neaprene or dry top like kayakers? did some boating in colorado and have a dry top still. sounds like fun when you describe it. my family is back est in mid atlantic area. dont get back that way much but will keep the invite in mind. some goes for ya if you get out to wyoming.

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

atc and fig 8s serve 2 different purposes and i consider the 8 to be more versatile and more rugged not just for beginners.
i use my atc mainly climbing and it is the best for that but the figure 8 can
do anything the atc will do
and more try performing a pluck off rescue with an atc its very difficult to hold
the extra weight of another person or maybee you are just lowering yourself
with a lot of gear
with an atc with the fig 8 you can double wrap it to get the extra
friction.

using ropes in wet dirty conditions picks up
dirt on the rope and can wear out aluminium gear very fast fig 8s have more
meat and will last a lot longer.(ive seen a fig 8 retired after 1 day)

we are not realy talking about sport abseiling but if we were heat is a major
concern here again the 8 is a better choice.

i might be wrong but i always thought that the atc twisted ropes worse than the 8
but that is just my opinion and have rarely used them side by side on the same day
doing the same thing.

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

Yes, we wear neoprene, wet suits, PVC suits, etc. The kayaking dry tops/suits are expensive and shred pretty easily, so they're not popular in my area of the country.

Damoc, good points. It's clear you and cortez really know your stuff! I'll defer to you and cortez about figure 8s and ATCs. I have an 8, but I primarily use a rack.

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

i use to do lift evacuations with no belay device. lowering a single person in their ski gear with the rope simply wraped around me. how much weight are you talking about? is the original purpose of a persons bug out bag to rescue everyone on their block? I've never had my ATC coil rope like a figure eight does, nor has it desintegrated or worn threw and that is after years of use in exteme conditions. i guess it may just come down to personal prefrence. I have seen search and resuce use( fig 8) them but in my opinion they are more like body recovery teams and take alot of gear and set up with overkill. if its just you and another person you may have to imploy ffaster techniques.

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

just need to be thinking about myself and gear.

300 to 400 pounds your weight plus the weight of another person or your weight and gear on verticle or averhang that weight is very hard to hold without extra friction on the descender.we must have two different ideas of
extreme conditions.abseiling all day in a muddy gritty canyon is my idea
of extreme conditions for aluminium gear and ropes.

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

And now for something completely different. What do you get when you cross a caver with a rock climber?

This is an old picture from a survey trip 200' above the tourist trail in Carlsbad Caverns. We were working in another cave in the park, where we had a good-natured rivalry going with the climbers working in the cave. Climbers were into fushia that year. We cavers agreed to do a little survey work in Carlsbad in an area that was accessed by walking a good ways along the tourist trails with the tourists, then climbing a rope up into the upper passages. My being notorious for scavenging my caving clothes out of the sales bins, my (soon to be embarassed) caving friends strictly admonished me, "For the love of God, don't dress like a rock climber in all that pink stuff and embarass us in front of the tourists!" :D

I'm climbing on a frog system here. The pack isn't tethered so as to protect the formations. Don't know why I was climbing with gloves. I rarely did that, though I kept them handy in case I had to changeover and rappel down. My rappel rack stays on the sit harness maillon for emergency changeovers.

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

Use a rack with a steel locking 'biner hooked in the top above the bars. Bring the rope below the bars back up through the 'biner, using the 'biner as an extra brake. You get good friction and control, especially with a 6-bar rack (steel bars, of course). I could pick a 120-lb caver off the rope without using the extra 'biner/brake, but I'd go with the extra brake for heavy cavers, wet ropes, etc. I know you all don't regularly use racks, but it might be worth having one with your rescue gear, provided you get some practice with it.

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

:wavey: better resolution to see equipment

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

yes the racks have the best friction controll and durability thats probably why you use it for caving also better for long fast abseils.im just a bit old
fashioned and dont like the seeming complexity i feel a sense of security
with a solid piece of metal.ps nice peacock suit ha ha

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

water ice mud cold conditions sharp steel. mountaineering days and weeks out in it. alaska in winter. the original question was about simple abseiling. if repelling over that just let er rip. do you mean your body weight is 300- 400 lbs.? or that much gear? if you got that much gear you must be near your car. if your body weight is that much your not getting out enough. not sure what you meant by that figure. are you abseiling all day in canyon is the wall 10,000 feet? even on the biggest walls in the himalaya climbers rarley spend that much time descending. your examples seem exagerated. not trying to be contentious but clearing confusion for the novice reader.

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

say no to day glow. nice pic

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

My fault for this confusion. When I started this thread I didn't understand just how complicated and expensive this was. So...my focus evolved towards Survival Preps with a rope and minimalist equipment.

:smile: Sorry. Maddie and Damoc have been helping me understand.

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

thats what i was trying to clear up. the most minimal is just a rope and rap off that. for the best seek hands on instruction. i'm sorry if my suggestions havnt hepled you.

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

oh i hope not that is a combined weight me and rescuee or me and gear
i have rappeled/canyoned with some 200 pound plus men and always had to be ready to rescue.also big wall climbs where you will carry 150 pounds
of gear you may need to retreat which will involve abseiling.

but this thread is about survival prep bob etc so it would not be to much
of a stretch of the imagination to see a 200 pound man carry 100 plus pounds
in gear harder to imagine why he would also jump over a cliff with it but entirely possible.

canyoning is a pastime in australia where you follow the canyons/small rivers in deep cuttings down abseiling and even small caves to a certain extent some of these are fairly extreme and dangerous.you are normally wet and dealing with mud and grit all day and much of these canyons are in very
heavily forested areas even rain forest so there is often no easy way out and up just try freeclimbing up cliffs covered in moss and fern and you will know what i mean.if i was going to bug it would be to an isolated place like that
(i dont plan to be bugging out im already where i want to be)but to get to these isolated places it would be best to follow the canyons.

the day i saw a fig 8 retired it was a rainy muddy training day with probably
1500 to 2500 metes put through on a figure 8 so it was an exceptionaly
hard day and not what you would normally see.
on the same day doing the same things i doubt if a atc would have handled 500 before retirement

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

sounds like fun. the trend in mountain climbing these days is light and fast. even the biggest projects that needed porters and hundreds of pounds in gear are being repeated in the purest alpine style. 1 rope, skeleton rack and lots of speed. have you ever seen Alpinist magizine? you can check out Alpinist.com also. clearly in rescue situations wieght is going to increase with another body. most of our gear is skied in and left in somkind of snowcave base area. be safe

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

:wavey: around $35

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

back yard. much fun

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

absolutely beautifull cortez ill post some pics of canyoning in oz when i get back from work.

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

Cortez, I'm officially envious! Magnificant! Damoc, Oz sounds beautiful, too! The Aussie cavers I've met have all been "ready for anything" kinds of guys.

I think that, if nothing else, this thread demonstrated the diversity of abseiling applications and the wisdom of specialization to meet those diverse needs. I think it's been an interesting thread (thanks for starting it, KG!).

(I'm looking for a typical caving gear photo for caving in my neck of the woods. If I can find one, I'll post it later.)

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

thanks. on reason i've never moved back east.

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

:yippee: Keep Going Guys! We all are learning much from you! Let's all revitalize the GIM Survival Prep Section! Make it the ultimate destination on the internet...

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

:wavey: Looks like a minimalist newbie can join the club for around $400

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

I'd say double that 'biner and make it 7. It's cheap, it's lightweight, and you can use it to tether your pack if it you don't need it for anything else. That's a nice harness, but if you're stuffing it into your BOB and going minimalist, I'd also go with a more compact harness. You don't need all that padding unless you're climbing on it and might take a fall.

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

MINIMALIST SEVEN

:adore: Thanks Maddie!

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

Thought some of you might like to read this article on suspension trauma/shock. The article was addressing caving, but it, of course, could apply to any sport in which exhaustion, rock fall, etc., might leave someone hanging unconscious and inert in a harness. It highlights how important it is to know how to self-rescue (before exhaustion sets in) if you get stuck or how to pick someone else who is stuck and exhausted or has become unconscious off a rope (perhaps due to a rock bouncing off his hardhat).

In climbing on rope, any sit/stand method of climbing (the popular frog system is mentioned in the article) would seem to leave one more quickly vulnerable to suspension truama because unlike various rope-walker systems, there is no chest level connection to the rope. On the other hand, rope-walker systems can leave one suspended upside down from the knee and ankle ascenders if the chest connection is lost, as it sometimes is when the climber is trying to pass an intermediate anchor or get enough distance to get over a sharp lip.

http://www.rescueresponse.com/html/n.../training.html

P.S. KG, I meant 7 items, not $7. You want at least one locking steel 'biner for your sit harness, and that will cost you between $20 and $35, depending upon where you buy it. D-shaped is the strongest. The other one doesn't necessarily need to be steel if you aren't using it to connect something that won't kill you if it fails, so it could be less expensive. If you are tethering extra gear to you that you might have to drop if you get in trouble on rope (like large coils of rope), use a non-locking 'biner, so that you can easily drop the gear. A locked gate on a 'biner won't open once the 'biner is loaded. If you drop a 'biner, say on rock or down a cliff, retire it or mark it with duct tape so that you know never to use for anything other than tethering accessories. You'd think you could see those hairline cracks in metal, but you can't. I inspected a standing bolt hangar on a rebelay one time and saw absolutely no sign anything was wrong with it. Two more people after me looked at it, too, and thought it looked fine. The bolt blew on the fourth person, sending him penduluming across the pit into a wall 50 feet away and breaking 3 of his ribs. He said he looked at it as he rigged in and thought it looked fine, then it blew.

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

:adore: Compact for really minimalist $50

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

:wavey: One steel locking one non-locking

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

:top: There you go! Now you just have to watch them like a hawk, so none of your rappelling buddies walks off with them! Seriously, rope junkies count their 'biners like GIMers count their gold.

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

I'm tying that $200 rope to my ankle when I sleep! Haha. Thanks Maddie and Damoc for helping me understand it all. For around $400 a newbie can present with suitable equipment and not go begging the mentors.

:wavey: you Pros can continue with this thread now.

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

http://www.damoc.com/photo/can1.JPG
my friend noel on a grade 1 canyon (the type you take mum and grandma on)
notice the slipped mantel on the set rope

http://www.damoc.com/photo/can2.JPG
noel again same canyon notice no harness and lashed sticks hes walking across.

http://www.damoc.com/photo/can3.JPGnoel again not even sure where this was


http://www.damoc.com/photo/can4.JPG
two americans not at all sure about entering the hole in the wall (i think it was a grade 4 or 5 canyon leave mum at home for this one)


http://www.damoc.com/photo/can5.JPG
I apologise for the rudeness of my aussie friend it is very hard to get a photo of him without his finger in the air KG notice his harness swarmie AKA 5 metre
tape and buckle very cheap and will fit everyone from fat jeremy in the pic to
my 3 year old.
http://www.damoc.com/photo/can6.JPG

http://www.damoc.com/photo/can7.JPG
http://www.damoc.com/photo/can8.JPG
still think you can climb out cortez? he he

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

nice pics. might need to aid to get outta that one, cheers

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

Is this like the one Maddie suggested here: http://www.karstsports.com/gogugecaseha.html

:dontknow:

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

No more like the improvised rope harness but with tape and buckel i would be surprised if your local climbing store actually stocked one. you can tie one
with tape but untill you learn a tape knot it is dangerous.
maddie alluded to one she might know where to get one?

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

I think us newbies better stick with store-bought in the beginning...

:D

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

I guess here in northern california is called a zip line hook on to the cable or rope angled down stream and enjoy the ride

see many uses for good rope stream crossing

http://www.damoc.com/photo/can9.JPG

Re: Abseiling is good to know WTSHTF
 

It looks like the same basic design as the red minimalist one above, but made with a thinner material. When I get home from work tomorrow night, I'll pull out my gear and take pictures of some of my harnesses. I checked around and couldn't find any simple premade tape harnesses for sale. This one is pretty close, though. http://www.howiesharnesses.com/catal...products_id=87
It's also possible Howie might make a custom harness for you if you know what you want. He used to do custom orders; don't know if he still does. Btw, the above linked-to harness is not a rock climbing harness. It's not designed to take big falls on. It's designed for high maneuverability on rope and a low point of attachment for climbing systems. It is also absolutely, positively imperative that it be closed with a locking maillon rather than a 'biner. (Rope technique tip: The final thing you check each time before getting on rope is that the gates on all gear that connects you to the rope are screwed tightly shut.)

My "minimalist" harnesses were either custom made for me by vendors at caving events or ones I made myself (I used to train people on ropework, so I needed adjustable sized, inexpensive spare harnesses). With the tape harnesses, most people make their own. For someone just starting out, though, it's worth the $50 or so to just buy one. You'll be more comfortable! Tape harnesses won't stand up to a lot of wear, but if you want something compact, these fit the bill. My husband made one that fits in the palm of the hand folded up. (If you're tying a harness or anything else made of webbing/tape, btw, use the knot called a water knot on the animated knot site and back it up with a keeper knot of some sort.)